On fleet fittings for Scottsmen

[Abram Thrust]

in the last couple weeks I've been involved in more than one fleet bash-up where we had matched number/shiptypes, a competant FC, and we still got our blue asses handed to us.

see there's one inescapable fact of EvE PvP, better and often more expensive fit ships tend to win fights, especially on the fleet vs. fleet level. and the reds right now in the US TZ seem to have gotten this fitting thing down, and more importantly, have the wallet to back it up.

so, for those of us without the means to throw 5-10 mil frigs at each other all day, I have a few relatively cheap things that we can do to try to bridge the gap, without breaking the bank


1) proper tank
I know it sounds silly, but i've seen a few laughable fleet tanks even considering their budget status.
specifically, I've seen a couple of active tanks that just shouldn't be taken into fleet fights, I can count on one hand the number of ships/fits with active tanks that I'd even consider taking into a fleet fight, and if you need to ask if you have one, you don't.

the problem is, that on most ships and active tank is enough to hold one enemy at bay, maybe two if they're scrubs, but whenfaced with a 1/2 dozen or more people shooting at you all at once the incoming damage is just too much for the repper to keep up with and your ship pops so fast that you would hve been better off with a buffer tank.

Example: let's look at two fairly standard Armour tanked rifters, one with 200mm plate + SAR and teh other with a 400mm Plate.

the differance in raw armour HP between the 200 plate and the 400 plate is about 500hp befoe resists.
now with a Small Armour Repairer II (SAR) it taked about 8 cycles (skills dependant) to repair the 500 extra HP worth of damage just to make them even, this takes about 45 seconds. now in a frig 1v1 situation, it's entirely possible to drag the fight out that long, or even longer in fact making the SAR route a valid choice for 1v1 work.
however in a fleet, even a 400mm plate rifter will be hard pressed to tand up to beig primaried for 45 seconds.

I use rifters, because that's what I fly so I know them, you can do the math yourself for whatever ship you're about to fly, but the results is much the same everywhere.

In short: for fleet work, Fit a buffer tank.


2) Rigs
rigging can make a huge differance to your ship, but depending on how you do it, it can also triple or more the cost of your ship! However ther are some that are a bargain.

the comparison:
-Trimarks: a full rack is roughly +40% armour, but at a million each as of this writing, they can often be worth many times more than the ship they're attached to. effective, but relatively pricy.

for the scottsmen:
-Gunnery Rigs,
we're talking the ones that are named "burst aerator" and "collision acellerator"
one of each of these should increase your DPS by about 20%, and the good news? they're a bargain!
At the time of writing, the projectile and hybrid ones are 100k each and 80k each (respectively) in the local markets.
locally energy weapon ones are about 500k, but I suspect that's due to a slow local market, and you could get a much better deal in Jita/Amarr on them. So for 200k (1/5th the cost of a single trimark) you can up your killing power by 20%

- Shield Rigs for shield tankers
ideally, you'd want to use "core defence field extender"s, they're the shield version of the Trimark, with a full rack yeilding approx 40% more shield, however, they're almost as expensive as trimarks at 750k each locally at the time of writing. However, you also get a 40% boost to your natural recharge, bringing your peak recharge almost to the point of having a small shield repper running for free!

but for the real scottsman, Shield resist rigs are cheap as chips.
each one gives you 30% resist to the damage type of choice, the standard rack is EMx2 THERMx1 and it gives you pretty even resists across the board, meaning that no matter what damage the other guy shoots, he's effectively going to have to go through your shields twice (50% resist) but if you suspect the other guys will be shooting aspecific damage, there's no reason you couldn't use different resists.

At the time of writing, Resist rigs go for roughly 100K each locally, so at 300K for a full rack (1/2 the price of a single extender rig) you can buff that shield tank of yours up a tad.


3) Faction Ammo
"whoa, WHOA! Abram you said this was for cheapos, faction ammo's freakin' expensive!"
yes and no. it's not too bad if you use it sparingly.

first off the goods, "fleet" faction ammo (ie: republic fleet, caldari navy, ect.) does 15% more damage than the T1 flavor, so adding faction ammo, is like slapping another Gyro/magstab/heatsink on to your ship,
and maor gank = good!

most 1v1 frigate fights are over within a minute, so why carry tons of ammo? especially expensive stuff!
When I go out a fightin' I load about 150 rounds of faction ammo in my ship, that's enough forabout 1 1/2 to 2 minutes of continuous firing depending on how liberal I am with overheating my guns.
as a backup, I carry a full reload of regular T1 ammo in case I run dry of the faction stuff, but to honest, I can't remember the last time I even needed it.

cost of this? well 150 rounds of Republic Fleet Fusion locally atthe time of writing is about 175K
but I seem to remember you being able to get that for about 2/3rds of that if you go to rens and pick it up there.
you hybrid boys get a good price at about 100K for 150 rounds.
Unfortunately, you laser users can't do this though, as you can't load 1/2 a crystal. the best you could do is after a battle make a beeline for any ships you saw using lasers and hope they dropped some.


4) Thermodynamics (Overheat!If you plan on doing this PvP thing for any length of time, I highly reccomend getting this skill.

the downside, you need engineering V and Science IV for it, but Engineering V is something you'll want anyway, and Science IV doen't take too long. also, the skillbook is about 4 mil, so if you're really broke/new it can be a bit of an investment.

But my god is it ever worth it.

what you get, is 15% more gank when you need it, 15% more tank for anything remotely active (SAR, Invul Fields)
50% (holy jesus) more AB/MWD boost when you need it.

even with bare minimum skills in it, you should be able to get 30 secs of heated mayhem, with good skills you can often get a minute or more. and remember, this doesn't get blown up with your ship, so the longer you PvP, the better a ISK/mayhem ratio it becomes.




So ther you have it 4 ways to effeciently up your fleet effetiveness for under a million a ship.

Now get out there and give'em hell!

[Aerion Varr]

Just throwing in my constructive 2 cents here.

Trimarks ARE expensive. However, Shield rigs are dirt cheap AND they don't incur that awful speed penalty that most people shoot for in fleet engagements. A Tripe Shield Extender Rigged Rifter with a MSE makes for a decent tank. Long Point, Medium Shield Extender, Invul Field (Combined with a DC2 in the lows makes for an excellent tank).

example http://redfed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7187440

Faction Ammo. Its expensive, but only carry enough to fill your guns, and an optional reload in your cargo bay. Many times of looting blue wrecks.. I see 3000+ rounds, that never saw the inside of a turret, because, well... you will never use that much ammo in an arranged fight.

Tanking. If your fit is PG/CPU tight, try switching guns out for Auto Cannons, their fitting requirement is very, very minimal (especially if you have some levels in Advanced Weapon Upgrades), and free up opportunities to add MOAR TANK!

example http://redfed.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7171269
(also note the amount of ammo dropped in cargo hold, this was for a roaming engagement)



(Edit: Well, Apparently I just presented a shorter version of Abram's post, with examples, Abram!! TL;DR :p)

[del Hospital]

new pilots dont usually fly more then 3 different ship types. just go to the killboard, search for that topnotch-pilot of your choice (or eve-race) and look up his fits.
many t2-fits also work decently with named or t1 gear
you get an idea of the different ways certain ships can be used
if you dont find fits for the ship youre flying, its probably not all that good at pvp ^^
talk to your experienced pilots, theyll be happy to explain certain fits for you. rvb is about learning

[helios]

One way to be cheap about the ammo - just load faction into your guns/missiles, but have regular ammo in the hold if you need to reload and don't die.

You can save tons of isk buying the rigs at the trade hubs too - everything is a little expensive in the RVB area.

h

[Skex]

I'd like to point out that if the choice is between T2 guns and rigs. Go for the rigs the dps difference between T1 and T2 is minimal compared to what is added to the ship via rigs and the difference in cost between T1 and T2 is generally enough to cover the cost of rigs. (at the frig level)

[Del DelVechio]

We endlessly get these posts on this board, all of which are good. The real question is, How many of the pilots that join Red or Blue:

1) Join this forum?
2) Read the posts?
3) Implement?

I don't know the answer either, but I would guess it is a small percentage. Real progress can be made by FCs and experienced pilots helping new pilots out, IN GAME. Ask to see their fitting before leaving if you have concerns. Check the KB after if you get routed. Make changes. Posting stuff like "We have poor pilots" or "you have rich pilots" while blindly forming up, getting routed, and repeating won't lead to success. I just gave Shen 520 small armor and sheild rigs for Blue pilots to use. I hope they get used properly. Small rigs are cheap and easily had.

Del

[Skex]

We endlessly get these posts on this board, all of which are good. The real question is, How many of the pilots that join Red or Blue:

1) Join this forum?
2) Read the posts?
3) Implement?

I don't know the answer either, but I would guess it is a small percentage. Real progress can be made by FCs and experienced pilots helping new pilots out, IN GAME. Ask to see their fitting before leaving if you have concerns. Check the KB after if you get routed. Make changes. Posting stuff like "We have poor pilots" or "you have rich pilots" while blindly forming up, getting routed, and repeating won't lead to success. I just gave Shen 520 small armor and sheild rigs for Blue pilots to use. I hope they get used properly. Small rigs are cheap and easily had.

Del

Probably not enough. Although if they actually read their welcome message and followed the instructions they would.

I do agree that it's up to FC's to help people in game to some extent, however there is only so much that can be done in that regard while trying to keep the fights going. I think in addition to helping out in game we really need to be reminding people to come here and read this stuff.

[Aerion Varr]

I've gone off on wild tangents about this in chat before...

Its hard to be nice about it and say 'hey guy- your fits suck ass' and not come across as an elitist prick. I've linked lossmails dozens of times to people to show the effectiveness of well put together ships (that I've actually flown mind you) and the result is something like this...

"Some of us enjoy just playing the game"
Well- you know, I log on to be perfectly miserable for 5-8 hours...

"Some of us don't have the money to fly 25M Fitted Cruisers"
Yet these same people have the money to lose 5-10 of crappy fitted Vexors or Thoraxs that take 1/5th of the damage my original fit did.

"Not everyone is going to do what you want them to do Aerion"
Contructive criticism is just that, Sure I smack in local, but its typically meant in good humor; its never a personal attack on anyone, its just goes to show the competitive person I am.

"Your an elitist prick"
Prick sure, Elitist not so much..


Remedial Fitting classes wouldn't be a bad idea, or just maybe a willingness for new players to speak up and say "Hey I'm new at this PvP getup, can you explain some shit to me?", which I'm sure alot of vets here would be more than willing to do. I guess it all comes down to someones willingness to learn or desire to improve their game, unfortunately a lot of good players come and go, and while sure flying T1M0 Fit Ships is affordable, but is it really enhancing the fun your side is having? Since.. From what I see at the end of the EU Timezone and Early US TZ are nothing but T2 Fitted Ships, Fully Rigged, ready to cause havoc. And we do.

Maybe we need to examine the active people in certain timezones and do a re-shuffling so to speak. Or maybe give incentives for being on top of the killboard, killing the most, best efficiency, most isk destroyed, most ships lost etc., etc. make the 'Awards' page on the KB mean something, and if this avenue of approach sounds good at all levels, I'd be happy to chip in some hard earned for the awards. I'm fairly sure those of us in the RvB Billionaire's Society wouldn't mind throwing up some prizes to encourage fun and reckless behavior

In the meantime, I'll still be watching the Killboards, re-defining my Primary List. (If 10 seconds of sustained fire will melt your hull, guess whos on top?! )

[ABrownie]

I for one really like these kinds of post, i read them and try to implement them in my fits.
Thx for the tips!

[Abram Thrust]

o/ abrownie

if you're new at this whole PvP thing, I'd like to shamelessly plug another similar post I made a while back called "abram's 5 commandments of ship fitting" or somthing like that.

it should be around here somewhere, and it could save you from being on the wrong end of a "lawl-mail"

like this http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_det ... id=7216990